Huh? Did YOU read pages 12 and 13? Remediation is extremely common and extremely subjective depending on the institution (some states care, others don't). I don't understand why you think having high standards for in and out of state students enrolled in our public universities would be a negative. The expectation that BA students also be well versed in math and BS students also be well versed in English is great.

I'm not even going to address your obsession with MOM's kids. What? One of them attends a private school? Who the eff cares. You haven't a clue why that would be the case. Get a life.

??? Your response has nothing to do with anything. I don't care how schools in Alabama and Louisiana compare to the rest of the world - we know those places suck. I guess you just don't have anything to whine about so this is as weak a response you can come up with? You realize you could just close your mouth for once, right? God forbid you not bash the state for a whole day.

Fact is this isn't about Jimmy Carter or Michele Obama - it's about return on investment for a college degree largely subsidized by taxpayers in practical and productive return - hands down science, math, engineering and physics wins every time.

?????

Guess you haven't kept track of how much the states actually subsidize the universities any more. it goes down every year that's the reason there is $50K of debt not because the kids are buying Latte's at starbucks. Guess you just think all the kids should be serfs then, correct? The other point you made is true, there is a direct relationship between spending and school achievement,

Sociology and Psychology are not "liberal arts"... you receive Bachelors and Masters in ~Science~. The former is a bit harder to use, though, as with many non-physical sciences; jobs are limited (other than teachers) and competition is high. The latter, however, has seen an increase in usefulness as people demand more and more therapists and counselors.

The issue is not all these people going into debt for degrees they may never use or need. The issue is that universities are run as businesses, more concerned with profit and graduation rate than the students and their futures. If there was more of a concentrate on life preparation, job placement, and student well-being then perhaps earning a degree would lead to more than ridiculous debt.

Learn a trade.............................

Ummm.... do you know that (according to several sources) that around 20% of top CEOs have liberal arts degrees?

LOL, Ohai. Thanks for the laugh. Yeah, all those people who do worthless things like write well or think creatively are so worthless. Why didn't they all go to an Agricultural and Mechanical university? It's still 1870, right?

Anderson, Bradbury, CEO of BestBuy, BA in Sociology
Annan, Kofi, Politician, BA in Economics
Baker, James, Former Secretary of State, BA in Classics
Brown, Jerry, Governor of California, BA in Classics
Bush, George W., Former President, BA in History
Christie, Chris, Governor, BA in Political Science
Clinton, Bill, Former President, BA in International Affairs
Clinton, Hillary Rodham, Secretary of State (and former Senator), BA in Political Science
Florio, James, Former New Jersey Governor, BA in Social Studies
Giuliani, Rudy, Former Mayor of New York, BA in Political Science
Groening, Matt, Creator of the Simpsons, BA in Philosophy
Hobson, Mellody, President of Ariel Investments, BA in International Affairs
Icahn, Carl, Corporate Financier, BA in Philosophy
Kennedy, John F., Former President, BA in History
Lautenberg, Frank, Senator, BA in Economics
Luther King, Martin, Jr., Civil Rights Leader, BA in Sociology
O’Brien, Conan, Entertainer, BA in History and American Literature
Obama, Barak, President, BA in Political Science
Obama, Michele, First Lady, BA in Sociology
Ride, Sally, Astronaut, BA in English
Riggio, Stephen, CEO of Barnes & Noble, BA in Anthropology
Robinson, Janet, CEO of the New York Times Co., BA in English
Scalia, Antonin, Supreme Court Justice, BA in History
Soros, George, Philanthropist, BA in Philosophy
Sotomayor, Sonya, Supreme Court Justice, BA in History
Whitman, Meg, Former CEO of eBay, BA in Economics

Jason - very, very disingenuous list because the bulk of those folks went on to get masters degrees in something other than basic weaving or womens studies. It is true that many, many liberal arts degrees are nearly useless...unless you teach the same nearly useless subject to someone else. The idea that the taxpayers subsidize to the same percentage both an engineer and a drama major certainly doesn't help us realize the same return on investment - I can assure you we're far more likely to get our money's worth from the engineer.

Karl: my point is that many people who shape our lives havd a very strong liberal arts foundation. I don't find that to be a coincidence. While some of these folks go on to get more specialized degrees, it is their liberal arts education that properly prepares them for it.

I would note that having a Bachelor of Arts is ~not~ the same thing as having a "Liberal Arts" degree. Many degrees are offered as either BA or BS (or even both) depending on the university. Both have the same core classes, but the supporting classes might have slightly different focuses.

As an example, the University of Maryland BA and BS Psychology programs are the same, except the BS requires additional courses in Mathematics and Science.

LOL at Jason Hume's list. Most of those people are politicians! He even has Michelle Obama listed as the all important to our GDP "first lady". Haha.

List the products you plan to spend money on during the next year. Then list the majors that kids are taking up. There is little overlap between the demand and production side. STEM is where it's at. Anything else is a huge waste of time and money.

Jason, I vote for Robots that cannot perceive or understand anything other than technical details of work.

Jason, I guarantee most of the people in your list went on to law school. They needed an easy major to get the high GPA to get into Law school. In general, an Engineering 4 year degree is worth way more than a Masters or Doctorate in liberal arts, unless, of course, you get a job as an overpaid university professor.

"List the products you plan to spend money on during the next year. Then list the majors that kids are taking up. There is little overlap between the demand and production side."

BECAUSE WE AREN'T A 3RD WORLD COUNTRY. NOR IS IT THE 19TH CENTURY. Just because people with liberal arts degrees aren't in a Chinese factory putting together plastic crap doesn't mean they aren't contributing to society. I honestly can't believe you're 150+ years behind modern society. How freakin old are you?

Ohai: my list is to refute your claim that liberal arts degrees are worthless. While it may classify a few as "politicians", I still bet that Kofi Annan, Obama, JFK, and the Clintons did more for humanity with their "worthless" degrees than the vast majority of of the so-called hard science degrees.

And maybe you overlooked the few CEOs on that list.

If the conversation surrounds which is a more valuable family of majors - something technical and skill based, or liberal arts...hands down it's the more technical degree, both in return to the taxpayers for thier investment (to include future tax revenues to the more gainfully employed graduate), and in terms of personal return - engineers make more money out of school because they leave school able to actually do something. It's always seemed to me that the liberal arts crowd loves to slam engineers and math majors because in reality they couldn't pass the most basic math classes required for the tech majors. It's driven by jealousy and a bit petty to suggest tech majors aren't creative - usually they're far more creative because fact is they're mostly smarter than liberal arts majors. It just might be that people don't so much chose liberal arts but that they end up in liberal arts because they've been weeded out of the smart classes long, long ago.

David, politicians from both parties are worthless. They are parasites who produce nothing and live at the expense of everyone else. People with worthless degrees do worthless things, especially if their parents have money and are plugged into the political pipeline. Btw, you said yourself that only 20% of CEOs have liberal arts degrees. That only further bolsters my claim. Progress is made by those with STEM degrees.

jag: Tea Partiers seem to think it's 1870 still...

LOL. PLEASE keep the comments coming, Ohai. They're fantastic. Those darn U.S. presidents and their bumming around. If only they got a math degree instead they could have gotten a real job and made their parents proud.

Jag, you are shockingly clueless. We are not living in the 1800's, which is all the more reason that we need people majoring in science, tech, engineering and math. Trust me, we are on the way to becoming a third world country if we don't start producing things. We cannot remain at the top if our citizens major in history, communications, and the like.

I have to add some life to this crazy discussion. Watch the arrows fly now.

Jimmy Carter was a nuclear scientist.

Ohai: what do you mean by "progress"? Are you dismissing the social progress that Dr. King helped achieve?

Karl: similarly, how do you define "valuable"? I assume you're talking simple dollars and cents and not the broader value that liberal arts majors add to society.

No doubt that this is an argument that has been going on for years and years. We liberal arts folks see the value because we hold a different sense of the world. But this was a fun and healthy debate that is still relevant today as it will be for generations.

Jason Humm, the biggest problem is that people in your list such as the Obamas, Kofi Annan, Jerry Brown and George Soros want to, as you said, "shape our lives". Some of us have no interest in having our lives shaped by them in any way.

The three active CEOs on your list are all at companies that are on a downward spiral. Coincidence?

And I agree that several on the list probably got their BA just to get a high GPA to go to grad school.

This isn't about Jimmy Carter, Michelle Obama, or Dr. King. You can't point to one person and say "that guy majored in X so an X degree is valuable (or worthless)". If you want an ecomony to grow, you want people who are STEM majors. If we are going to subsidize education, it is a much better payback to taxpayers to subsidize STEM and not liberal arts degrees. I am not sorry if liberal arts majors are offended by that notion.

Paul, Jimmy Carter was a Nuclear Engineer, not a Scientist. There's a difference. That said, as a President, he was an embarrassment to us Engineers and Scientists.

The poor peanut farmer keeps taking hits.

? I don't think the waiver (which most (all?) states get) means what you think it means.

Haha. Thanks for keeping this conversation on the light side!

So, if a single mother wanted to go back and get her degree to support her children, you'd recommend a history major? Or computer science?

I would recommend she go do whatever she is good doing. Aptitude tests are useful. She may only be ever qualified to pick up garbage. You can't teach computer science to everyone. Most can't do it. Most can't do advanced math & science. That's why GT classes are limited to those that can and want to do it.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows a computer science major generally makes more money than a history major (that's what you're getting at, correct?). What the heck does that have to do with the value of different education paths? If the single mother wanted to make an actual difference in the world, it's entirely likely the history background is more valuable. It's remarkable how embarrassingly arrogant you are. You don't need a math degree to be valuable to society. I can't believe I actually just had to type that. What on earth is wrong with your brain chemistry for you to need that explained to you? If only there were more scientist in the world we might be able to figure out the answer...oh well. Darn lazy people with their fake educations.

Computer science majors don't "make an actual difference in the world"? They sure do in my world, which is the real one. Of course, my world isn't the one with vague touchy-feely descriptions like "actual difference in the world" and "valuable to society". It's the one where people create things and build things (as you would say, things that make an actual difference in the world).

Changing subjects a little big bit, just what did Jesus Christ build?

Interesting statement. "STEM nerds tend to follow not lead." And you typed this statement into a computer, posted it on something called the Internet, and it is now available for someone with a smart phone to read while driving in their GPS-enabled car. Gosh...those dumb STEM followers, I wish they'd go out and lead something useful!

Sam, doing is not leading.

Those who built nuclear weapons were followers, those who built chemical weapons were followers, those who built biological weapons were followers. That does not mean the leaders were wise, but how smart were the STEM folks?

Phil Dirt, maybe if you had taken a couple more English classes in college you'd be literate enough to actually read what I said instead of chopping down straw men all day. No one said computer science majors can't make a real impact on the world. Of course they can. Just like of course a history major can. For someone to say or imply otherwise is hilarious.

Jag says: "I'm pretty sure everyone knows a computer science major generally makes more money than a history major (that's what you're getting at, correct?). What the heck does that have to do with the value of different education paths?"

Read that back slowly to yourself, brah

Hey brah, news flash, your salary has exactly zero correlation with how much you're contributing to society. I can name dozens of professions that contribute much more to society than my wealthy butt. Plenty of those meaningful professions have nothing to do with science and math - believe it or not! What a shocker for you, apparently. I honestly can't figure out if you're some 15 year old who has no idea what the real world looks like or if you're 80 and are flat delusional at this point.

"your salary has exactly zero correlation with how much you're contributing to society"

ROFL

Fine, Ohai. You're right. My friends who are mechanical engineers and making less than half my salary are wastes of space. Oh, wait, now your two completely psychotic assumptions about people's worth are flying in the face of each other. Whatever will you do? Come up with a third reason why everyone in the world other than you is useless, I'm sure. I'd love to know who you are because I almost guarantee everyone on this chain contributes more to society than you do.

Entertainers and sports figures earn what? They do change our lives.

You can tell that Jag knows he's lost the argument based on how quickly he resorts to personal attacks. A+!

Aha, claim victory, take your ball, and go home strategy. We should try that as a country more often.

Paul, get over yourself. If Jag has a point I encourage him to make it. His last comment was nothing more than a personal attack with a dash of sarcasm. I will not entertain that sort of childish behavior.

Ohai, now that you have gone personal, let's go. Your theories, ideas, or whatever you want to call them are simply asinine. They are are ignorant without any thought and reflect an ignoramus' ideas. Happy? Good bye.

Wow, Paul! You've exceeded my expectations.

Or destroyed.

Hi Buzz, I disagree with you 100% on this one. Some of those who built these weapons questioned what they were doing. Most of these scientists and engineers did exactly what they were told. That by definition is a follower.

So basically you only take issue with "Followers" that build WMD's

SW, please carefully read my posts and the entire thread. Ohai believes STEM education is the way to go ignoring everything else. The world is made of leaders and followers of which both are necessary. I am pointing out what can go awry when those STEM folks go blindly into the dark with a Pied Piper leading them.

Point taken.

Paul - not followers - just naive people that believed their inventions would be used for the common good. Just like those that believed Bush when he said 'sign on the blank line - we need to go to war' and Obama when he promised us that Obamacare wasn't a tax.

Not even intelligible comment.

As has been said in various ways above, we obviously have different opinions and definitions of "doing for/helping society/humanity".

I don't think anyone will argue the innumerable benefits to science, technology, and general American pride that the space program and the moon race had. And I should remind you that JFK led the country in making that happen.

"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

It is for these reasons that I regard the decision last year to shift our efforts in space from low to high gear as among the most important decisions that will be made during my incumbency in the office of the Presidency."

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/clinton/lewinskydress.html

Wow. You went there? I'm trying to hold a decent discussion and keep it on topic. We're talking about what liberal arts people do for this world. It's not all about widgets and gadgets that you can crank out. While those are important, all these comments that liberal arts degrees, funding, and majors are worthless is wholly inaccurate.

Of course there are controversial issues surrounding all these people that we're talking about, but that's not the topic at hand. We're discussing their contributions and "value" to the world.

For you to call Kofi Annan an idiot is absurd. You should probably read a little more about him and what he's done.

For several reasons, I won't comment on any contributions or issues surrounding Obama.

If you can bring yourself to look beyond Clinton's issues while he was in office, he has more than demonstrated a huge ability to make significant changes in the world. If you don't believe me, ask some of the hostages whose release from North Korea he negotiated. Politics and policies aside, I don't think you should so easily dismiss people who have liberal arts degrees.

Buzz, you call it structure. What did the Germans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Russians, Israelis, etc. call it from their side of the fence? Follow blindly and you will go where?

I think deeply about what I am saying. Americans for the most part have been trained to follow authoritarian thought, which is balderdash. They call me a "lib", that doesn't fit in that box does it? Think for yourself, the crowd leads to the slaughter.

Americans...for the most part have been dumbed down from the truth by the use of our government approved public education system...this has created massive public apathy that lends itself,or cater's to the nation of followers concept.
The government loves dumbed down, apathetic citizens....that's why we are continually getting screwed at every political and corporate angle....apathetic structure sucks..

I guess maybe you should cut back.

Your right you watch nbc ,cbs ,abc and all they care about is network money that's why they are cutting those divisions to bare bones ,Msnbc is going away and even though cnn tries they just don't have the resources or viewers .What people should do isfollow the largest the one thats network puts in the most money and let's you hear both sides try watching FOX NEWS. They fit as the largest and most balenced.

Am I the only one that noticed the most idiotic, small thought comments come from small "k" kevin? To think you're allowed to vote is astounding. You follow along and refuse to think for yourself, instead deciding to go with the crowd of Fox watchers. Letting them think for you. You are a sad individual, but reflective of almost half of this country. Wowie.

Thank you FiFA coming from you I'm honored.Frank what network has a show like the Five I'd like to watch? As for MSNBC not going away wait until after the election it will be a movie channel and NBC will have the regular network.You must've not been paying attention to Keith Obermann who stated they were headed into oblivion and were going to mainstream one of the reasons he headed for Gores network or so he said . Ed Schultz is definitely gone he won't make the mainstream cut Rachael Maddow will fit in on NBC she will be able to take both sides of an arguement.After this election whoever wins there won't be a need for it the ratings are lower than local infomercials.That is a fact .
.

Kevin, you are simply ignorant. I have trouble not having a bladder leak you make me laugh so hard. Recommendation, wait awhile before you try for the Big leagues. You are outclassed, outsmarted by almost everyone here. Please take remedial writing too.

Keep on writing little 'k'. I'm sure that fifa is angry that your vote gets to erase his. GOD BLESS AMERICA.

Sorry - Fox news has the best looking chicks. Rachael M is a man. She was hot in HS - what the hell happened?

how's that working out for our inner cities?

Didn't work for you it appears.

Millions out there not paying taxes, miling the free roles and living in mortgage free homes for several years without paying. When duz i gets mines?

Most people have no choice about paying the legal taxes....are you referring to income tax here..?